Ep7 Dr. Lani Roy - From Trauma to Training: How One Therapist is Revolutionizing Psychedelic Education

Dr. Lani Roy  0:00  
Never felt more at home with a group, the group of friends and people that I have the medicine of friendship, like Anam Cara means soul friend. And basically it's this friendship that is so deep, you know, that it transcends space and time. It is the ultimate mirror. And it's the type of friendship that is really a medicine, practice like a psychedelic of its own. Welcome

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  0:22  
to psychedelic source where wisdom meets practice in the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine. I'm your host, Dr Sandra Dreisbach, and I'm here to help you navigate the complex intersection of ethics, business and personal growth in a psychedelic space, whether you're a practitioner, therapist, entrepreneur, or simply curious about this transformative field, you found your source for authentic dialog, practical resources and community connection in each episode, we'll dive deep into the stories, strategies and ethical considerations that matter most to our growing ecosystem. Let's tap in to our inner source of wisdom and explore what it means to build a sustainable and ethical, psychedelic future together. The

VO  1:15  
information shared on this podcast, our website and other platforms may be triggering for some viewers and readers and readers and is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. It is not a substitute for professional medical, legal or therapeutic advice. While we explore topics related to altered states of consciousness, we do not endorse or encourage illegal activities or substance use. Always research your local laws and consult qualified professionals for guidance. The content provided is as is, and we are not liable for any actions taken based on the information shared. Stay supported and informed. Act. And informed. Act responsibly and enjoy the

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:46  
podcast. In this episode of psychedelic source, I have the opportunity to talk with Dr Lonnie Roy, and I want to give you a heads up right now that this episode may be potentially more triggering than others because of the content. So I just want to make sure you're taking care of you. Care of you. That said, I know you'll enjoy the journey of the conversation with Dr Lonnie Roy, She is a psychologist, a social worker, a psychedelic therapist, and she's also the founder and chair of am a P, P, the Australian multi disciplinary association for psychedelic practitioners. She has worked with borderline personality and dissociative identity disorder in various roles in the community, everything from rape crisis centers with victims of sexual abuse, childhood and adult sexual abuse, supporting women in the industry and survivors of even human trafficking. And so she is indeed a specialist in complex trauma, and she shares very candidly about her own experiences, not in detail, but how her own healing journey led her to this work, and why she cares so very much about creating good ethical practice in her work, and how she tries to develop accountability and good guidelines in support of her practice. So while we're all evolving and learning how to support everyone, I think this one is unique in the fact that we're seeing how this sort of healing transformation promises that we talk about in psychedelic practice, how that can possibly show up. So enjoy the episode. Take care of you during this episode. Well, hello, Dr Lonnie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so grateful to have you here. We know each other from a map, but we've we've met each other before that, but maybe you could tell our listeners, a little bit about you and your work from your perspective,

Dr. Lani Roy  4:06  
awesome. Excited to be here. So I guess today I'm just me and my many, many lenses that I work with. So I'm the director of science of life psychology, which is a private practice, and also the director of Anam Cara center for psychedelics and contemplative therapies, with my beautiful best friend and business partner, Melissa Warner, and the chair of a map, which is the Australian peak body for Multi Disciplinary psychedelic practitioners that has launched about a year and a half ago. Now, get it. My main, main projects at the moment, I can't

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  4:48  
believe it's already been a year and a half. It feels like just yesterday. I mean, and maybe you could tell, maybe not for me, you've already done a. A lot of heart labor in so many ways. And I think I would definitely say that about you, you know, you definitely put all of who you are in your work, and that's at least my experience of you, and that it really is a passion. And maybe we should, maybe we should talk a little bit about, you know, what, what brought you into this, this work, you know, how did you come into relationship with, with plant medicines or psychedelics or or what? What's your what you're coming to, to the space and community? What? What, what? What was the heart that got us started?

Dr. Lani Roy  5:37  
Yeah, I love, I love that question, and I'll never get sick of of answering it, because I think each time you do, you find little jewels and other meaning reference points that evolve over time as well. And that just shows you the relational element of medicine work. It doesn't just stop at one point. It just keeps growing. But for me, I, you know, I'm a social worker and psychologist, and have been for since I was in my early 20s, and have been a sexual abuse therapist as my main passion daily working with complex trauma and childhood abuse. And that comes from my own, own lived experiences of trauma, and I reached a point around when I turned 30, where I went through like a really profound dark night of the soul. My my existential framework for reality just was not holding up with the level of suffering and at times evil. You know that I was coming into contact with the children and people that I was supporting. And, yeah, I went through a two year period of, you know, really intense searching, you know, just, you know, it wasn't manic or sarcotic, but it was just below that, you know, right at that cusp of, you know, not sleeping and just searching for any literature, any you know, I guess, author theory, religion, just deep, deep, deep, deep, searching and trying lots of different modalities as well for myself and Yeah, and just finding that my own client work, like had reached a point where it's like, this is not enough. There's something I'm missing in my practice. And, you know, whole series events led me to go to the jungle by myself at a point in Australia where I didn't know anyone else that had done psychedelics. I was some reason that just wasn't there in my field. It wasn't that professional landscape that there is now the boom hadn't started. So it was quite, you know, quite an isolating, scary experience. Most people told me not to do it, including my psychologist, you know, incredible woman who since passed away, and she had the best intentions, but she said, Don't go, you know. And if I'd actually listened to her. I'm not sure where I'd be, because it was getting pretty dangerous, in the sense of just not sleeping. You know, really, that self care started to really plumber and, you know, two young children at the time. But yeah, as soon as I had that experience with the medicine, it completely did that one session did completely change my my life. And that sounds like a bit of a cliche, but it was really, yeah, a huge turning point for me, and opened up the mystery and opened up so much depth. And, you know, didn't give me many answers, but it activated a deep love of life and death, and my relationship with suffering and pain is completely transformed now. It's more alchemical and relational. And yeah, then I came back to Australia, and then very quickly, you know, started carving out a career and bringing these medicines to Australia and with many, many other pioneers, and changing how I work with people as well.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  9:08  
That's beautiful and also really powerful, because I don't, I mean, I think women are really brave, but at the same time, to leave your country of origin against the advice of your therapist. And I'm not saying this is the right choice for everyone. Right? Always listen to your medical professionals and therapeutic advice and take it under consideration, right, which I'm sure you did as a professional yourself, but to go to I'm guessing South America is where you went? Or, yeah, yeah, and, and I assume you hadn't been there before. No, I mean,

Dr. Lani Roy  9:47  
I traveled the world extensively in by myself, and I've been to some pretty exotic, challenging places, but I had always been well when I'd gone. So I guess you're right. The. Know the unique quality was I was very unwell, and I went by myself. And I completely agree people do need to listen to their mental health professional. But I guess the difference was with my one, she didn't have any understanding of the medicines. She was coming from a place of fear, right? So the and I get it, because that's where we were in the culture at the time. But it didn't help me, because when I access to knowledge, it was like, very limited whereas, you know, I think as practitioners now, when we're doing risky assessments with people, when we can come from a place of, okay, what are your options? What's, what is the risk? You know, and if the client can feel really safe and held without fear to explore that, I think, yeah, I think that makes the difference. Because unfortunately, at that time, you know, when that information was given to me, I just was like, she doesn't know what's going on here.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  10:57  
She doesn't understand.

Unknown Speaker  10:57  
She doesn't understand. She's not coming

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  11:00  
from an informed place, and no

Unknown Speaker  11:03  
fault at all of her no no

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  11:05  
right. I imagine you know, she was very talented and but what would you tell professionals now who don't know about this work? You know, whether in Australia or beyond, who, who may have that fear, like your your therapist, especially as a professional yourself, what? What would you tell them?

Dr. Lani Roy  11:27  
I would tell them, in Australia that it and really around the world, it's a obligation to know about these medicines, because it is in, it is in the field. It is a healthcare choice, an option. It's real. It's becoming more and more available. And not knowing as a practitioner is actually, I think, you know is potentially, it's unethical, because in Australia now it's so available in the media. It's so available in the literature. If you're choosing not to know, then you're as a practitioner, you're turning your eyes away from evolving science and from a big chunk of healthcare narrative. You can say it's not your specialty, but I think there needs to be a base awareness of this is the data. These are the risks, these are the potential benefits, so that if someone comes into you, you can at least know where to refer them to, and you can do so from a place of like, respect and harm reduction, and not from fear, but from just informed health care.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  12:32  
No, no, I just want to reinforce what you're just saying that it I think that's a really grounded approach, right? Like you don't have to be in favor of psychedelic therapy. You don't have to, you know, get trainings to be a psychedelic therapist, right? But you can be open minded and be educated and informed for the benefit of your work and for your clients as a professional, exactly.

Dr. Lani Roy  12:58  
And I would also say to them that, you know, there's risks with everything. There's a lot of risks with pharmaceutical side of treatments. There's risks in everyday therapy. There's a risk just being a human being in this world, waking up every day, and that, yeah, you need to treat these medicines like, like any other, you know, tool, that there's risk and there's benefits, and just being helping people to navigate that clearly,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  13:26  
yeah, because part of what helps mitigate those risks is being informed and understanding and they can, and you can reduce those risks. But the other piece that made me curious when you when you brought up your personal story, not just from being a professional who has awareness, a deep awareness, of a sexual abuse and trauma from both a personal and a professional perspective and and that's now these from your, I'm sure, very informed lens now, knowing that harms do occur in The space to be a single woman and go abroad, there might be independent reasons why someone may say, why would you go travel abroad and risk right the potential harms, knowing that even if it is a good therapy, that there are additional risks to you As a woman, what would you say to someone now in our current environment about that? Yeah, it's

Dr. Lani Roy  14:27  
really interesting, because when I went to the jungle, it wasn't to heal my sexual trauma or the domestic violence I experienced that had, that actually had felt really healed. I done a lot of work, even though it's, you know, there's always ongoing elements. But that wasn't why I went to the jungle. Why was, you know, ultimately, death, facing death and the bigger, much larger, existential themes. But I did have an interesting experience on my first session, first ceremony, which was the most profound I've ever had, and I've had hundreds. So there will be nothing that will replicate that one experience. There was a girl next to me who was sober and didn't have any medicine that night. And there was, there was an experience in the journey when I was obviously having a very difficult time and energetically, the the Coronavirus came over and put some agua de florita on my belly. So they lifted up my top just a little bit and put the furrier that, you know, that smells beautiful on my belly. But in that moment, I had no idea what was happening, you know, I, I thought that I was being salted and, you know, because there was people touching me on my belly. And as soon as you know that was only one little fragment of my journey. There was a million other lenses to it, but as soon as the lights went on and I looked at the Coronavirus, I just felt safe, and I was like, Okay, I need to check in what's happened here. I was lucky. I was able to turn next to me to the girl and say, what happened? And she said that, you know exactly that. And that landed for me, and that felt accurate. But I often think to myself, you know, what, if she wasn't sober. And also, I didn't even know that they did that before I went into the jungle. I didn't know that they could lift up your top and put oil, you know, oil on you without you giving consent. Technically, because you can't in that state, I couldn't give consent. I couldn't even hear them, yeah, and I

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  16:27  
think that's an important thing to emphasize. Like, you know, anyone in an altered state of consciousness cannot give proper, informed consent, and you were in that state when this experience happened, and it is part of that tradition. But in terms of it sounds like from part of your preparation for that experience, it wasn't like they talked about, these are the sort of things we might do in ceremony. No,

Dr. Lani Roy  16:50  
these are the tools. These are the things that can happen. You at least consent to that beforehand. So I didn't have that. They missed that. You know, it was quite an amazing center, to be honest, but also very rustic and very, you know, very shamanic in the sense of, there's things going on there that they're just doing, probably assuming, assuming consent. And this is where it gets it's a bit tricky. So I guess a big part of my work is for people to really do it an assessment on, you know, what a what do they know about the context? What are the tools that they use? What is their sensory profile? You know, for some people, they hate being touched. They hate certain music, if they've got, you know, sensory challenges, you know, really having as much information as you can. But I guess ultimately, I wasn't thinking about any of that. I was thinking about die, surrendering, you know, like completely Obliteration, to be honest. So again, that that articulates when people are in those states, they're not thinking about these other things. You know, it's, it's life or death for some people. And this is where the practitioner can, like slowing down some of this urgency, or at least having that, you know, that time to go. Okay, so for that, for you to surrender, and for you to have that experience and come back from it, there's probably some some pretty important things you need to consider. And

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  18:13  
I love that you brought up the idea of having, like, sort of a sensory intake or checklist. I've been talking with some people, actually, in the neurodiversity space, about we've been working together on a checklist that could help with that sort of sensory aspect. And it sounds like you've integrated as part of you know your work and informing people and and even though it sounds like overall, that experience was really positive, that that experience still helped informed your work. How would, how would you describe your work currently?

Unknown Speaker  18:46  
Oh, dynamic. I appear. I learn everything the hard way.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  18:51  
Oh, please, no, that's manifest that.

Dr. Lani Roy  18:55  
And but I, you know, I make my very strong medicine from it. And I it does help me to definitely support others. Because, you know, I guess once I returned from the jungle and I felt fantastic, I felt really incredible, then I entered my the next dark night of the soul, which was the professional dark night of the soul, which was my, you know, my baptism of fire into the field of corporate psychedelics, the field of narcissism I was there was a whole layer of vulnerability that I had no idea existed because I had had decades of really easy and healthy working relationships, largely like I often I use my husband as a metrics because we've been together since I was 17. And I'm like, was it always this? Like, this? Was it always, you know, hard? Like, because it is hard at times. And he said, No, there's something distinct and unique about the field psychedelics. And I guess how I've managed to kind of make meaning of it recently is. It's unique in the sense that you've got, well, you know, a new culture emerging with not a lot of elders. If we're not talking about the, you know, shamanic, you know, First Nations context, we're talking more about the Western surge of psychedelics. So you've got experts that are deeply in process themselves. They've got large research portfolios, they've got huge pressure. They've got incredible pioneering work. They're doing their own medicine work, and their own traumas coming up. And then you've got, yeah, that lack of eldership, and you've got, you know, spiritual emergence, spiritual bypassing, capitalism, narcissism, mass media, and it just goes on and on and on as it's a lot

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  20:46  
So and. And before you say more, um, maybe, maybe we should position you a little bit. Maybe you could say a little bit about, you know, where are you from, and, and where do you live currently? And, and how do you identify? Yeah,

Dr. Lani Roy  21:00  
yeah, I love that. Wow. In my data, recently, people have been talking about global citizen. And I very much, when they start saying that, I was like, Oh, my God, that's incredible. Like, citizen of, you know, the globe, but yeah, born in, born in Belfast that migrated to Australia when I was really young. So, very much, very much Australian, but I have, you know, strong connection to your family America, family in South Africa, family in Scotland and and Ireland and yeah, and I love travel. And I also very, very connected to Peru and Coronas that I work with there. So, yeah, all those things and more.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  21:41  
And what about now? What about what in Australia, right? What would you say are your primary relationships there?

Dr. Lani Roy  21:52  
Yeah, I would say in my primary relationships have come from the medicine community that I've discovered in the last six years, I've never felt more at home with a group, the group of friends and people that I have more the medicine of friendship, like being able to you think you know what friendship is at a certain point in life, and then it has just grown and deepened. And I guess that brings me to mentioning the name anam Cara, which is a Celtic word that me and Melissa have named our center and psychic training center after. And anam Cara means soul friend, and it's a John, John O'Donnell. He writes this amazing, you know, poultry and book about it and and basically, it's this friendship that is so deep, you know, that it transcends space and time. It is the ultimate mirror. It's not easy, but the depth of love is endless. And it's the type of friendship that is really a medicine, like it's like a psychedelic of its own, and I'm just very lucky. I had that with my little son, who's my business partner, but also many other friends. I've got this, and you can have anam Cara, and you can be anam Cara to someone else, and it's a very profound, profound relationship. So yeah, that's what I'm exploring with at the moment. In many

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  23:20  
ways, that's really beautiful. It's deeply beautiful. And especially as someone with my own Scottish ancestry and Celtic ancestry, I appreciate hearing that in connection and relationship too. So it's it's beautiful, but maybe you want to tell us a little bit about, you know, what, what Anam Cara is doing in terms of training. How are you approaching that work with that soul, friend, heart, space, intention. We're

Dr. Lani Roy  23:48  
about to launch our new website and now all our new offerings in the next month or so. So it's been a big journey in the sense of, I guess, evolving as a practitioner, and really finding myself and like, who I can work with and I can't work with and, yeah, just the more i This work is so delicate, and you really need to, yeah, the relationships and the container, you know, of this work, I'm just, I'm still learning so much about in order for me to deliver the best programs, like the environment that I've Got to cultivate for me and my team and the conditions that we got to nurture for this to be rolled out in a way that's sustainable and healthy. And yeah, so that's that's a whole big piece, but I guess what the metaphor of anam car is that ideally, that if you are a psychedelic therapist, you have someone in your life that is an anam Cara. You have this whole friend, you know. You have the support, the love that someone who can hold up the shadow without shame, without you know abandonment and ridicule like just that depth of friendship I find. I found that. Time at this in this field, it can be quite isolating and and harmful. Friendships can go through a lot. Professional Relationships can go through a lot. And yeah, I really feel we need like close friendships to get through it, and we're not, we're not giving Ankara to our clients. That's different, because there's a different relationship there. But the goal is that the clients that we work with who've had severe trauma, severe relational damage, abuse, that at some point in their life they know what it's like to have animal car to be able to love themselves that much and be in relationships so deeply with someone else, and, you know, so that's the kind of the alchemy of it. And then we have also, we can put this in the show notes, but swim is our metaphor for, you know, I guess psychedelics is this vast ocean of of experiences, and in order to to weather the storms and to return to shore, you know, we know we need to know how to swim, and we need a whole range of tools. So our program is designed around the somatic lenses, interdependence, the field of interdependence, wisdom. So wisdom is the aspiration from, I guess, more of the Buddhist lens, the aspiration of wisdom, of what it means to be, you know, embodied ethics, right, relationship, compassion. You know, different philosophies, wisdom, traditions that we draw upon. Because, you know, a lot of people have a lot of knowledge in this field, but wisdom is something that we need to aspire to and with that, you know, mentors, elders, wisdom traditions, and you know, That's the whole big piece

Unknown Speaker  26:57  
I

Dr. Lani Roy  27:00  
dependent. So, you know, this is, oh, this is the the field that, no, we're all swimming in. We're dropped into this profound mystery. Most of us feel disconnected throughout our life. So this covers many different things. From, you know, nature based therapies, from, you know, even part, you know, parts work in the sense of understanding who we're relating with and how we're relating. And, you know, tools and practices through meditation and metacognition and somatics as well. What's the um? Metacognition. Metacognition.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  27:35  
Okay, metacognition. So, so, so, what do you mean by metacognition?

Dr. Lani Roy  27:40  
So, it is the capacity to know your mind and hold your mind within other people's mind and also within the universal mind. So I guess there's what we know is that when people have severe mental illness or trauma, their medical condition is impacted. So they can become very eye focused survival, compassion can be very hard into into tendence, into connection. You know, you lose touch of that your body is foreign or scary. So it's helping people to really break down those tools of critical thinking, reflection, discernment, being able to step into someone else's mind with compassion and and hold pretty tough things, you know, be able to see the other in self. And I guess from a harm reduction perspective, it's discernment, so that when people go into like, really complex altered states of consciousness. They're not necessarily assuming it's fact or real or literal, or that they are God and well, we all are. But you know, from that place of the chosen one, grandiose, these tools can really help people go, okay, that's an interesting thought. How does that feel in my body? How does that really play out in my relationships? What's the impact of that, you know, maybe I need to pause before acting that out, you know. So it's a whole range of practical skills to scaffold the psychedelic mind so that people can journey really far and wide and not take it so seriously and play with phenomena, and also, yeah, I guess it links back into the somatics, into interdependence and into wisdom, and it kind of all comes together so you don't drown,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  29:34  
so you swim, right? Are there life grids on duty? That

Unknown Speaker  29:41  
interdependence? That's the community, that's the fields.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  29:44  
Yeah, the community, the community is part of that independence. Yeah, I'm kind of curious to explore that more, but, but maybe you could tell me, like, so, so if I'm, if I'm someone who is a new client, or someone who's wanting to learn about the swim or, I guess this is for facilitators, right? For people who are wanting to support and work with people. So you're teaching people how to teach people to swim

Dr. Lani Roy  30:07  
absolutely but it's, it's a dual we have programs that are just for clients, and this is, this is the stuff we embed with, with our own work, with our clients. But ultimately, the way we teach is that the psychic therapist needs to have this model within their own psyche, their own body, because if you can't do those things for yourself, how can, how can you support other people to, you know, swim in the oceans of consciousness? So the program has a dual call to action. It's, you know, learning these, those pillars and lenses for yourself as the practitioner, first and foremost, and then being able to support that scaffolding for someone else. And I'll send you, I'll send you some resources for your No,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  30:51  
I love it. I love it. And I know a lot of people will talk about, you know, doing the work or shadow work and and balancing that, that self work as well as self care in relationship to being a good, supportive person, not just integrity for yourself, but in relationship. So how does, how does your program, like, help people to find that that wisdom balance between you know, because you know, you know, I'm sure you know about, like, projection, transference, counter inference, we could maybe define some of those terms for the audience, but, but just the element of, like, you know, I went through this process, this is what helped me. So this is going to help you type of risk, but also the risk of not doing the work that's necessary and, and this, and, and, and assuming that you're already, I'm already good, like I'm I'm confident I know how to swim. I'm an expert swimmer. And that element of humility in relationship, how do you, how do you help create that, or CO create an interdependence, that balance?

Dr. Lani Roy  32:01  
Yeah, well, I think it's a long term commitment. So, you know, our programs, we hope people stay connected to us long term, because really a psychotic course for even 10 months, which sounds long, is just the drop in the ocean for this work. So for for us, we're trying to really instill that wisdom is a lifelong aspiration, and you never had had it. Very few people have got it. It's it's an aspiration, and you need to be orientating your mind and your body, your soul, spirit, towards things that are in align with your values and your ethics, people that, as I said, the animal car, are people that can hold up deep levels of friendship and love and reverence, but also the shadow. The shadow work. And what I found in this field is people often talk about the shadow, and that we need to, as professionals, hold up the shadow. But actually very few professionals stick around for when it gets ugly.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  33:02  
Oh, that, yeah, I can, I can attest to that, but it's challenging. There's reasons why. There's reasons like, oh wait, I see that maybe later. Or like, you know, or maybe it's not a big deal, or even that, I've worked on that and, and not realizing that it comes back up in in a in a cycle, or it's a process of healing, right? And, and, and I think you're a good testament to this, because you've had your own multiple processes of of healing

Unknown Speaker  33:41  
and making mistakes. And, you know,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  33:43  
making mistakes, making mistakes which, which are normal, right? Yeah. What advice would you give someone who's who's curious about, about starting work as a facilitator? You know, there's, there's so many programs out there, especially in the States, I don't, you know. I don't know what it's like in Australia. I know now you have more and more practitioners, but not as many options in terms of of training and education. There's, from what I understand, feel free to correct me,

Dr. Lani Roy  34:15  
yeah, there's more emerging, which is really exciting. I guess it's complex, because at the moment, there's still a lot of gatekeeping. There's a lot of great professionals, rightly so, will only work with the people they trust. So it means that there's a very small pool of people that keep getting the same kind of roles. And I guess what we're, you know, passionate about through our program is creating dosing pathways and training for people, and kind of breaking down the barriers of gatekeeping and giving more people access and more people opportunities. Because what ends up happening is people are so desperate to do this work, because it's so meaningful for them, that when they get a job, they're not really assessing is this you. Boss, safe, is this clinic safe? For me, is this aligned with my ethics? What they're focusing in on is, oh, my God, I finally get to do a dose session legally, right, right?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  35:11  
Or maybe the only person that they find right, who's willing or that they can afford, right? This there are a lot of barriers in Australia to getting that access, right, legally, legal access. We're talking about legal access. But maybe, maybe you can define for people, how would you define gatekeeping and and how do you, how do you create that balance in and where's the appropriate, you know, healthy, healthy boundary, and where does it become an unhealthy gatekeeping so maybe you could help by just defining, how do you consider that term, and what do you think about

Dr. Lani Roy  35:52  
it? Yeah, I guess it's, it's, I did a PhD in a completely different area, working with the Deaf, DeafBlind community and sign language. And you know, for them, the whole world is gatekeepers, because they're just blocked out from access to to sight and sound. And so I guess I can only speak for gatekeeping from me, because there's actually a whole layer of gatekeeping depending on your gender, your race, your disability, or so that's kind of a big topic. But I guess for me, you know, technically, I'm a gatekeeper in the set, in the sense, and I didn't realize that until someone said to me one day, you know what you're saying matters, like you could impact X, Y and Z by that opinion. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Like, I don't think I'm very powerful, and sometimes I think I'm very vulnerable, and, you know, completely useless. But to other people, they're like, look at all the roles you're in. And if you have opinion or you comment on about someone, you know, there's six or seven people in the room that might not hire them or, you know, and it's like, wow. So I think, and people aren't as forgiving. People aren't as you know, I might say a comment, but I am very forgiving, and I will work with basically anyone which has been my detriment, but other people aren't people. People are very risk averse, people are very clinical, they're very conservative. So I think a gatekeeper is someone who has power over someone else, and that can be through, you know, them having a job, them getting a membership, them being part of a group, them being allowed to come to an event. You know, we have the power to block that, and that's scary, I think, because not a lot of us would probably be thinking about that. And gatekeeping doesn't mean you're a bad person or doing that you had any intentions of excluding anyone, but you're very you're very being in the world, and sense of power has an impact on those that are looking up to you, or that you're leading or or that are in your field. So certainly, something I'm going to be more conscious of. Um, conscious of. And, yeah, I think power is a big one. Like, how you working with power, being conscious of it,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  38:10  
yeah, and I love that you also bring up, you know, the sort of invisible gate keeping, and how even when you're intending to be equitable and inclusive and, or even the shadows of power, but, but just simple, different ability, right, being, being, you know, ableist, right, in various forms, right, where you this whole society is built for a speaking, visual hearing, able bodied, neuro typical world, right? And, and that's that's not like a conscious gate keeping, even though there are conscious gate keeping, a lot of times when I hear gatekeeping in the space it's people who are who are blocking access out of trying to create a trust community network, trying to protect community or protect individuals, or to protect from legal harm, depending upon what the situation is, to reduce risk, Although I don't necessarily agree that that does reduce risk, it can often create more opportunities for risk. But what would you say, you know, since you say you are trying to lean into this, you know, what? What would you? What are you recommending to yourself? What do you what are you telling yourself? How are you working on this? Since you talk about like, you know, doing this sort of work and teaching people to swim by swimming. What are some of the things that you're doing in relationship to this? How do you keep yourself accountable?

Dr. Lani Roy  39:50  
Good question, I guess. I mean, one of the benefits of having ADHD is that I'm very honest and I'm very open and I over. Share, and so I definitely don't well, I'll pause that I am less likely to hide. I'm more likely to confront and talk and share and and for some that's confronting and also uncomfortable. So I'm trying to find that line of how to be a professional and someone with lived experience in this space, and wear all those hats, and know that I have my own neuro diversity, and that can means I can miss other people's, you know, I can. I can actually clash a little bit with people with autism, because, because of my ADHD, has a unique quality that, for some people, is like, whoa, too much. Slow down. You know, you're, all over the place at times. So I think letting people know about my neuro diversity, letting people know that I'm open to feedback, I tell all my students. I actually have a pack of my students saying, This is how my brain works. These are like works. You know, Please assume it's not you. Assume it's me. First. We're learning, and I want you to feel safe to pull me up and say, you know, this isn't queer, or you need to slow down. So it's actually bringing a bit of humor and a bit of fun and a bit of playfulness to things that could be really offensive and serious and giving, giving people the permission to challenge me and permission to, you know, illuminate my quirks. And you know, for me, big part of animakara is creating deep, long term mentoring pathways, so investing in students and investing in relationships. And you know, I, I do hope I get that back. And I am getting that back in certain ways now, from certain people in the field, which took, it took, it took a little bit for me to find my feet, of like, well,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  41:50  
no, and I appreciate that. I think that there's an element, I mean, for everyone to find their space. But as someone, and you know, who also self identifies as being neurodiverse and and on the spectrum. ADHD, however we want to say it, I really appreciate the sort of unmasking as we would say, that you're doing by in relationship, by by sharing that aspect of yourself, by being willing to own those challenges in communication and opening up the lines of communication and encouraging your students to to even call you into a relationship when those challenges arise, because, and I would definitely agree with you that there are certainly times Where what the conflict that's happening is a conflict based on a misunderstanding due to different abilities. Getting back to this, this question ways,

Dr. Lani Roy  42:49  
or just different lenses and ways of being in the world. And I think in this field, we don't have enough compassion for practitioners, particularly the not for profit sector. You know, I'm a clinician, and I have paid work, of course, but I do, I don't know, 1520, hours a week, unpaid work. At least, I've got young kids, you know. And there's many of us like that, you know, through example, you know, epic Australian psychedelic society, it's like, yeah, there's not a lot of, I would say, support, nourishment, you know, really, just really acknowledging. We get it right. We do it pretty well for our clients, but I think for the actual volunteers in this phase, and pioneers and people who are doing something for the first time that's never been done before, need a bit more, bit more kind of compassion and like, are you okay? Okay, you're dysregulated and you're being weird. Do you need anything? Like, can I get you a cup of tea?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  43:51  
I love that, because I think we talk about being trauma informed in our space, and as someone who definitely is a an expert, and both personally and professionally, I think definitely one of the unique challenges, since you're mentioning that earlier, about the unique challenges of this space, is the fact that a lot of the people we are interacting with, including ourselves, have a lived experience of trauma and and trauma triggers come up, what are some of the resources or supports that that you found helpful for you as you navigate through this space, both as you know a person with that lived experience and As you live that in relationship?

Dr. Lani Roy  44:42  
I mean, this isn't everyone's way of being in the world, but what I'm trying to do for myself now is only really like engaging systems, where it can hold pretty big shadow, you know, if I'm working in a. Very regulated service where if anyone makes a mistake, then there's going to be shame, or there's going to be like, Oh my God, how do we cover this up? How do we get rid of this person like that just is cancer for me now. So I guess a big part of my role at a map is creating a culture where you know mistakes and ethical issues are going to happen, and people need to feel, you know that they can't connect with us. And you know, really go there, because what you find with most supervision or regulatory spaces, there's a limit, there's a cap what people can share out of fear, and this is where the shadow of psychedelics will thrive, and this is where people will, you know, knock at help. And so, yeah, I'm very big at that. No shame culture doesn't mean no responsibility. And there's a big difference between, you know, criminal predatory behavior, but still, those people still deserve to get support and to be, you know, supported, to take responsibility. But yeah, I've watched over the years how quickly groups can turn and how quickly the gatekeepers with the best intentions can just turn on people. And I've been one of those people when, you know, when I entered a very unhealthy organization. No one would talk to me like people were like, black, I was blacklisted. And I look back now and go, Oh, I was very vulnerable, and I needed help. I needed someone to say, you know, you're doing, you're involved with the wrong people, and this is out of line, but I'm here for you, even when you leave, I'm here for you what you need. And I've had the luck, you know that, I guess, the fortune of going through that experience and having that same process happen, where I've left and new people have come in, and they've had the same experience, and I've been able to say to them, I won't be associated with that those spaces. I can't be associated with you professionally, because you're in that space, but I'm here for you at any point, any point you want to talk about it, or or if you leave, I'm here and there's, there is I get it, you know?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  47:19  
Yeah, and I love that putting the priority on the person and on the relationship and on creating that that support mechanism that's there, independent of of the choices that they're making. As a person,

Dr. Lani Roy  47:35  
you can still have boundaries. You can still send the same message of this is not okay, and this is serious and but that person can know that you're like, you know, there's potential there, you know, for for advice or support if they choose to step into that, right?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  47:52  
And I love that you're also giving examples of other things that happen the space that can cause harm, because people think they're setting healthy boundaries, by blacklisting, by put removing people from a community, but they're not still holding space for their mental health or with their well being,

Dr. Lani Roy  48:13  
or talking to them about it. You know, a lot of it was communicating,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  48:16  
right? Like just just closing the doors, cancel culture, type of orientation, where you've crossed a line that you haven't communicated, you haven't talked to me, and now, now I'm out, and I don't fully understand why.

Dr. Lani Roy  48:32  
So, yeah, very, very big about the tough conversations, going to these uncomfortable places, and yet all of this has really tested compassion for me, because it's as has my early childhood experiences of trauma, because it's easy to have compassion for colleagues that get along with and, you know, systems that are pretty good, but it's like when you are face to face with something pretty ugly, you Know, where How Deep Is Your compassion? So I guess what I would say for people starting out in this field is have a good look at how deep your compassion being tested, because that's the level of how you're going to be able to meet some clients and some systems, and if it, if it hasn't been tested. And because I think there are limits for therapy and for how deep you can support people if you're only able to hold you know compassion at a quite a superficial level, or at a level that's comfortable, like living for a very bodied space of ethics and depth requires, Like, for me, compassion that is, like, almost supernatural, where you have to space, that you have to hold, and that doesn't mean compromising your own safety or your boundaries. It's much more rich than that,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  49:51  
absolutely, yeah, and as you know, some of what we talked about earlier, like, I know love, you know, compassion is so key for me personally. I also really resonate with what you're sharing and and that also that aspect of compassion for yourself, right, in equal measure, right? That sometimes what I've noticed at least, and it sounds like you also right, that there's also a tendency for some people to over gift, thinking that it's compassion when there's when it's actually causing harm to themselves, absolutely, you know, yeah, no. I mean, I would rather, like, we could have a whole discussion. Yeah, yeah. What counts is over sharing, you know, because, like, I mean, I think, I think I'll say I like this about, you know, being on the spectrum and that little tendency towards oversharing or openness, right, to put it in a positive light, that that at least there's an there's an understanding and a willingness to have those conversations and and, and that we're less likely, perhaps, to to go into that, that space where, where it's nice, but not that you know all you know, everyone's different, right? I have moments where I'm shut down too, right? There's a and there's there's times right, and and that, that wave and flow. But I love the compassion, because compassion will help serve for all the things that you mentioned today, for for swim, as a practitioner, for yourself, you know whether you've experienced harm or traumas in your past, whether you're working with with clients, whether you're a junior who's curious about the work. So I just want to say thank you for your compassion, your heart space, and for your friendship and relationship with this work. It you know, seeing people like you who continue to show up in different ways, even when there are breakdowns of communication and and, and even when they you know, maybe the repair can't happen, but you still are trying to show up with compassion towards yourself another so. So thank you for this conversation. Thank you Lonnie and so much. Yeah. Thank you

Dr. Lani Roy  52:17  
for everything you do and for being Yeah, that joyous bundle of laughter that you are. We've been in meetings sometimes when I think other people have been like, serious and quiet, and you've been your laughter has been like, I'm not gonna say inappropriate, but it's like, it stands out. And I'm like, yes, because, like, why not laugh right now? For no reason,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  52:40  
laugh or cry like you know, well, I lean Prince laughter, you know me. That's a laughter over share thank you for that. I really appreciate you. Yeah. Well, you have a beautiful rest of your day, and it's my evening as you we meet between worlds and and thank you so much, Lani, there's so much I enjoy about talking with Dr Lonnie, and it's not just because we both are passionate about having good practice to prevent harm and abuse in this space, but also just just truly, the the willingness and the bravery to be able to look at one's own shadows and and sometimes, you know, you have a practice that is really very much In the Shadow space. Her work very much is and, and I think, I think one thing that's hard to explain to people who who don't work with survivors of different sort or who are not a survivor, and I should disclose that I also identify as being a survivor, that not just the unique compassion you need and the skills you need and what it means to be trauma informed, but the the real time it takes to have these transformations and healing and and healing is a process. It's it's never one and done, and, and you can hear that in in the story, in in the story, in this conversation. And I hope this helps to ground people who are who are thinking about exploring this work, you know, not just in the fact that it really does take time to heal and but that it, but that also that optimistic, that hope piece, that you can turn that that work into things that also help and uplift others. And I hope that that you're uplifted from from hearing this episode and and do make sure you're well resourced. One thing I want to make sure, I emphasize at the end of this episode, is to make sure. Here again, that you are well supported and that you receive the support that you need wherever you are in your journey, if you have had a challenging experience, or if you have had a history of traumatic experiences, not only be gentle and take care of yourself, but please get the support and resources that you need. You've heard about shine, who does some peer based survivor support in the psychedelic space and nest harm reduction, depending upon where you are in the world and what you need. You know, please don't hesitate to find counselors and professionally trained therapists who can help support your needs and and I hope this episode helps to show that that healing is possible, and though we're never at 100% per se, the shadows are still the shadows you just integrate them. So send you so much love and support, and thank you for holding a brave space for yourself for this conversation. Thank you for joining me on psychedelic source. If you found value in today's episode, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share with others in our community. And if you're a psychedelic practitioner, therapist or coach looking to identify blind spots in your practice or determine next steps for moving it forward, take the first step by visiting psychedelic Source podcast.com Until next time, remember, start low, go slow and stay connected to your source. You.