Ep11 Elizabeth Hoke & Julio Iniguez - Breaking the Addiction Cycle: A Revolutionary Approach to Recovery Through Connection

Julio Iniguez  0:00  
I wish nothing on anybody other than to have the experience of having their full self be welcome anywhere. That's part of the invitation. And like the offering, it's like, let's, let's do this together. And,

Elizabeth Hoke  0:12  
yeah, how do we get more in connection with each other? How do we get more? You know, like Julio was saying, find your find find your tribe, find your people, and if it's not there, then create it, and they'll find you, and that's just what we're needing now more than ever.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  0:26  
Welcome to psychedelic source where wisdom meets practice in the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine. I'm your host, Dr Sandra Dreisbach, and I'm here to help you navigate the complex intersection of ethics, business and personal growth in a psychedelic space, whether you're a practitioner, therapist, entrepreneur, or simply curious about this transformative field, you've found your source for authentic dialog, practical resources and community connection. In each episode, we'll dive deep into the stories, strategies and ethical considerations that matter most to our growing ecosystem. Let's tap in to our inner source of wisdom and explore what it means to build a sustainable and ethical, psychedelic future together

VO  1:19  
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Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:52  
In today's episode, I have the opportunity to talk with two people and community who work together and support not only psychedelic assisted therapy, but also work with each other to help support psychedelic recovery. They each have their own psychedelic recovery journeys. They are both licensed medical family therapists. They both also are teaching at Lewis and Clark College to help educate future therapists who are going to be working with psychedelic therapy and and also have a real heart space and commitment to this work. When you hear from each of them, I'm sure you'll you'll see why I'm I'm really excited for their contributions to this space and their unique perspectives on psychedelics and recovery and what that can look like, given from their own personal experience and how they show up in relationship with each other in their work, as they support people in community, as a community. Elizabeth Hoke, she actually has been working for quite some time, who's experienced not just her own challenges around undiagnosed ADHD as a child that led for her to early substance abuse. She is also passionate and dedicated to helping people who struggle with ADHD and addiction, and she uses a mix of theoretical tools, which you'll hear a little bit more about here. She is a certified ADHD clinical services provider, and has spent more than a decade serving and supporting clients who struggle from obstacles of living in a world that doesn't always support people who have ADHD. She also has spent a decade as clinical director of the liberation Institute, which He supervises interns and trainees so that they can collectively provide therapy for individuals, groups and families on an affordable sliding scale. Julio iniges, he also has had multiple positions in the mental mental health and dealing with addictions or substance dependency field, including direct service counseling and practice and agency program development and management, as well as clinical supervision of direct counseling staff. And he brings a real, beautiful perspective in terms of a systemic, culturally responsive and trauma informed perspective to his work with individuals and couples in his private practice. An additional note for this particular episode I'd like to bring forward is that this does deal with issues around addiction, substance abuse and recovery, so keep that in mind as you approach this episode and aware of how this may bring up issues for yourself, and if you find yourself in in a situation where you are struggling with addiction or substance dependency, I encourage you to reach out to some of the resources mentioned in this episode and to to get help. I. And to be open to all sorts of possibilities for for recovery. Last I heard, there was at least nine times that people make attempts before they they have find that they're more on the recovery side of the recovery journey. So please, I just want to encourage you to take care of you as always, and to reach out to source yourself in all of your journeys and recoveries and reach out for the help that you need. Well, welcome to the show, both of you. Both you, Liz and Julio, it's such a pleasure and delight to have you both here, and my, my, my audience may be curious, like, why are we having two people? But maybe, maybe I'll have you guys take the lead and talk about, what do you guys do together in the psychedelic space?

Julio Iniguez  5:58  
Sounds good. Liz, do you want to start? Sure.

Elizabeth Hoke  6:03  
So I am a therapist here in Portland, Oregon, and one of my specialties is in addiction recovery. And a few years ago, Julio and I were asked to teach a continuing education class on on recovery, but also how psychedelics can be used in recovery, because that's another, another thing I'm really interested in. So we did a bunch of research, and we just got really excited about this idea of how are psychedelics being used in addiction recovery, and how can that be supported in a communal way? So we created a group called recoveries remedy out of those meetings where it's a little bit different than typical recovery groups, but it it has its own, its own way of being. It's its own thing. So

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  6:53  
I'll let Julio tell a little bit more. Yeah, no, and I love that we're going to talk about recovery today and and to hear about your guys' program and the innovation. I mean, I cannot tell you how many people I've talked to who either currently are struggling with dependency of any of multiple sorts, but also who seek out psychedelics and plant medicines as a way to recover and yet find this sort of like disjoint between what's offered in AA programs, even though there's now psychedelics and recovery, although we're not going to be talking about that, but I'll be curious to hear Helio a little bit more from your perspective too.

Julio Iniguez  7:28  
Yeah, so I think you know, when I first met Liz, it was actually we were coming together as faculty for what was going to be one of Oregon psilocybin training programs. And so that's when we met. And so it was a bunch of other folks that were mental health professionals, but when we went around talking about our why, like, why are we interested in doing that? Liz and I shared that part of our story of being people in, you know, recovery. And so that started conversations between the both of us, around being in a space where we're using psychedelics for healing, but we're also, you know, dealing with a history of the substance abuse, right? And so it's like, how do you reconcile the two? And so I think that sparked the interest in not only creating training so that there's more of that being presented at an educational level, where people are learning how to work with both of those and that they're not mutually exclusive, but that there's also some really important things to pay attention to when you're working with somebody who has a history of addiction, when you're doing psychedelic healing, but then also just this shared like, appreciation for the connection of like, I'm so glad that I can talk about both of these things with you. Like, this is the breath of fresh air, and I think that's what led to later on, being like, what if we just created a community offering where we actually don't have to be therapists, where we can bring our full selves and when we can talk about recovery, and where we can talk about, you know, psychedelic integration in a way that like is just open, compassionate, non pathologizing, shame free, and that's how recovery somebody was born.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  9:19  
I love that. I love that heart and that beginning. And I obviously can't go too far into this without asking each of you if you'd be open to share a little bit of your own personal journey with either psychedelics or your recovery journey. Since it sounds like they've gone hand in hand to some extent, maybe Liz, you want to start Sure? Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Hoke  9:43  
So, um, you know, as far back as I can remember, I always felt like an alien, like I just really never felt like I fit in as a kid. Um, I just remember I'd always have to mimic what everyone else was doing around me, just to feel like I was getting it right. And, you know, around the age of 12, a friend of mine, we were home alone, and she was like, Hey, you want to drink this thing? And we did. It was a beer, it was a Corona. And the, you know, the relief that it brought was immediate, like I finally stopped questioning who I was and what I just was in the moment, and I felt so good about myself after that. You know, so fast forward, like, anytime I could get my hands on anything I would, you know, by 16, I had moved out of my mom's house, and I was, you know, finding ways to work in bars and really just be around alcohol as much as possible. And then, you know, with having a developing brain, being something that was, you know, drowning in alcohol all the time. It really didn't help me make good decisions in my life. So we made a lot of bad decisions. And, you know, by the age of 20, I was, I was bartending and just, you know, drinking all the time, like I couldn't really get through school. I was having really hard time. I also had undiagnosed ADHD, which really contributed to a lot of the way I felt about myself, and a lot and a lot of the way I was already failing in school, because things just the way that my brain was working. It was school was really hard for me. So when, you know, putting alcohol on top of all that just it really wasn't helping. So, you know, when I was around 24 I had a good friend named Clint take me to a taqueria, and he was and he cried, and he was like, listen, you're killing yourself, and I can't watch it. And no one had ever said that to me. Like, you know, I think because I'm pretty good at making it seem like I'm doing all right, and I never would ever ask anyone for help. I'm like, No, I got it covered. I just never asked for help. He was like, This is ridiculous, and I don't want to be around you if you're going to act like this. I you know, I love you, and I can't watch you do this. And so that was the beginning of my of my recovery path. You know, I did end up getting sober through AA, but what was hard for me was that I'm not a spiritual like, I'm not a religious person, and I didn't know what spirit was. I thought spirit and religion were the same things. So I'd go to these meetings in churches, and they'd be like, what's your higher power? And I don't really, I didn't have a higher power. You know, I was raised culturally Jewish. That's where my lineage comes from. Is Ashkenazi Jews, but we're not actually religious by, you know, practice, and so I didn't know what a spiritual practice was, but then I ended up, you know, relapsing and starting to drink again, just because I had gotten a few years of sobriety. But I wasn't feeling better, you know, I went from being an alcoholic to then I was like smoking, and then I was, like, acting out in different kind of compulsive behavioral ways that, you know, having bad relationships or bad friends, things that were, I was just kind of my addiction was morphing into different behaviors and doing different things. So I wasn't actually, I didn't feel in recovery. I felt I was over, but I wasn't in recovery, still living a toxic lifestyle, yes, yeah, but I was sober, so I was like, I got the sober coin. I'm chain soaking and drinking coffee, and I'm like, I am going to these meetings, which are helpful. But at the same time, I was not engaging in finding what my spiritual practice was. So I relapsed. But in my relapse, I ended up someone gave me some psilocybin, and during this specific experience, I remember I was like, out, and I was looking at nature and I and there was, like, these really beautiful trees, and it was raining and and everything just seemed so beautiful. And I had so much gratitude for, like, the whales and the ocean and the birds and the trees and and I had so much gratitude for nature. And I felt so so so much in that moment. And then I realized, like, wow, this body I've been given this, this is also nature, like I am nature. I'm not separate from it, like I am the birds and the trees and the whales, like we are all on this tiny rock floating in space, and we are all connected to each other, and I don't want to hurt this anymore. I don't want to hurt myself anymore. And that, that was the first time I realized that I was really hurting my it was like, this epiphany of, like, wow, you've really been destroying yourself. Like, even when you took the alcohol and the drugs out you were, I was still destroying

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  14:10  
that pattern. And I love that. I love that part of your story where, like, it wasn't that you weren't, you know, quote, unquote, doing, doing the work as it were, and and showing up for your recovery, it's that it didn't, didn't fully complete the picture for you, and there's some more work to be done. And that the introduction of psilocybin for you at least, seemed to make a shift in the mindset. And this is just me saying you don't have to identify with any of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

Elizabeth Hoke  14:41  
definitely. And that's all of a sudden what spirit was to me. You know? I was like, Oh, wait, this doesn't have to be a religious thing. I can just be in relationship with nature in this very spiritual way that I never known was a possibility before. I thought religion was the only pathway to spirit. And I was like, Oh, I can just you. Go outside and sit on with this tree and feel the presence of the tree and find my spirit that way, and the mushrooms really helped guide me to that place. So that was huge. It was profound. But I did end up, you know, because I was still surrounding myself with all the things that were encouraging the behavior and the addictive things I was doing, I ended up drinking again. And then two years after that, I went back to AA, and they were like, well, you can't, you know, I was like, I'd like to integrate, you know, psychedelics in my practice. And they're like, No, you you can't. Like, once you're once you're an addict, you're always an addict. You anytime you do anything like that, you'll have to restart your sobriety date. And you're not sober if you're doing that. And I found all this judgment from from that. And so I ended up going to a which was helpful again, and getting sober. But then after a year or two, I was needing more. I was needing more from it, you know, and I was glad, and I'm grateful that they, the 12 step community is there, but I just needed something that was inviting other ways of finding a spiritual practice that didn't come like Julia said for this, like shaming and judging and rigid rules that are telling you how to do it. And so that's so, yeah. So then

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  16:14  
a lot of people even bring this up in relation to, I mean, we're not going to go through a whole thing about 12 step, but, you know, given some of the origin stories of the founders, having used, as you know, LSD as part of his, you know, experience, but that wasn't something that was publicly shared. Yeah, and I'll put a pin in that, because I want to get to hear a little bit of Julio story here, who's been patiently waiting so because I know the next step is going to be about what motivated you both to create this, this piece more. But Julio, if you're open to share a little bit of your story and your relationship and how that involved, also psychedelics in the end, sure,

Julio Iniguez  16:53  
yeah. So you know, my story is very similar to Liz's. So my my family, migrated from Mexico to the United States when I was six years old, and I didn't speak a lick of English. So, you know, very early on, there was experiences about like not being understood, or experiences about like not feeling connected, or experiences of like, you know, not belonging, that were part of my early development. And so when I grew up, developed into, like a young adult, I found that sense of connection and belonging through, like drinking with others, like, I mean, I was the coolest guy in the room when, because I could drink so much, and because I could smoke so much, and so that sort of, like the way that I found that sort of was like an analog of, like this need that just went unmet for a long time in a significant way, and I was also just absolutely reckless. So one of the things that I think worked to my advantage is that, like I got into recovery at age 25 which, you know, I think is relatively young, and part of that is, you know, going into 12 step meetings as a result of, like, I was court mandated to go through a whole drug and alcohol program, and I had to get my court cart signed that I went to meetings. And so I was actually going to meetings, and I would be at the meetings, and I would hear these stories of people that, like, would lose so much because of their addiction, and I would not see myself in them, because I'm like, I'm just getting started. It's just like, I you know what? I mean, like, I do I have to this thing about belonging came up again, where it's just like, do I have to suffer more to come back here, to be able to tell a story like these people are telling. And so I took what worked, which was like, I'm not drinking anymore. You know, my life is no longer unmanageable, I developed the habit of not drinking, and then went on to that's what inspired me to become a marriage and family therapist, and then I moved to Portland, and then I was in Portland, you know, in my master's program. But similarly, you know, relationships to money, relationships to food, relationships to other people, were very painful, because what was driving those relationships felt a lot like what was driving my drinking, but I wasn't drinking anymore, right? So that was in that place, and then I found this sort of like holistic yoga teacher that combines yoga and, like 12 step recovery. And so that was like really resonating with me. And then towards the end of my master's program, one of the certificates I did in that time was like an international family therapy program. So we got to travel to Uganda, and I also spent three months in Colombia. And during the time that I was in Colombia, I was invited. To sit at an Ayahuasca ceremony, and so I had to do this, like reckoning with myself, where I was just like, wow, this is a this is a drug. This is going to alter my consciousness. Like, do I say no to this because I'm in recovery? I had been to Colombia before, and in a cultural exchange with Afro Colombian women. They, they offered me this thing called Bucha, which is a type of alcohol, and I turned it down, and afterwards I regretted it, because I was like they were just trying to connect with me across cultures in a way that, like I ended up rejecting it, and I feel like I actually missed out. I don't know how much that would have actually if I took a little sip. I don't know how much that would have actually impacted my going back to drinking, since my drinking career was very short and very quick. So having that as a point of reference, I decided to you know what I'm going to see what this is about, and I'm going to go into it with the intention of healing and of just being open and seeing what happens. And in some of those experiences, I experience some of the most embodied. Feelings of like self love and self acceptance that I'd heard people talk about, but just, you know, it's one of those things. Was like, Oh, that's not for me. But, yeah, I hear that's, I know that's possible for other people, but that's not for me. So I really experienced it there. And then I came back and was talking to my teacher, who's the, you know, the the yoga recovery guy, and I was telling him about this, and he's like, you know, what Julio you, you and I have a few things very much in common, which was this really weird, nice way of saying, like, I don't agree with what you're doing. And at the same time, I also started addressing the fact that, like my addiction was manifesting in all these other ways. And so I started working like a Buddhist recovery program, refuge recovery, and I got to go on retreat with that teacher. And we were doing the loving kindness meditation, where we do phrases of, may I be at ease, may I be loved. And so he was giving the Dharma talk about, like, I had to practice this for 25 years before I really believed it, and like, you just have to be diligent, and you just have to repeat the phrases. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there remembering this Ayahuasca experience where I know what it feels like to love myself, and I know what it feels like to really embody that. And I felt guilty and I felt shame. I was like, oh my god, I cheated. Like, how can I get here so quick, right? There's always this sense of doing something wrong, right? So I actually went and, you know, pulled him aside, and was like, Hey, I gotta talk to you about something. Like, I had this experience, you know, with Ayahuasca, and now when I do the metta meditation, like, I don't feel like I have to wait 25 years. I feel like I have a reference point. Like, what do I do about that? And he said, appreciate it and be grateful for it. And so that was this, like, oh, okay, maybe this is an actual path that can also be a part of my recovery. That also includes using mind altering substances in a different way than I ever have before. The issue was at that time that there wasn't anywhere to go to talk about it, right? So, so that's yeah, that sort of leads into where this came from, you know, where recovery is remedy came from. Yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  23:24  
and, and maybe you can talk, you know, maybe now we can go back to both of you, recovery is remedy now, why? Why that name? What? What is different about what you all do? You've already kind of given us a bit of a teaser as to how it's different, but maybe you guys can say more, like where, clearly, it's it's not just a name, it's not just a theory, it's not just a practice, it's part of what you both are living, right? And and for those who probably won't know, we had a little chance to pre talk before this, and I was just saying like, well, we need to have more examples of people who are actually living in in a good, I don't even want to say recovered state. I want to say in, sort of like working with ourselves, in relationship with whatever arises. That's, that's a normal human experience, right? So what? What can you say? What, what's your what's your journey? And what do you present as a community?

Elizabeth Hoke  24:21  
Yeah. So I think you know, instead of this idea that sobriety is the center of of the program, it's more about relationship. We talk about what right relationship means. Like, are you in right relationship with yourself and your environment and the people around you? Are you? How are you treating your body? How are you treating How are you treating everything around you? So instead of it just being like, Okay, you're sober, you get to come here and talk about being sober. It's more about, are you actually working a recovery program? And I think when we talked about it being the name recoveries remedy, like, you know, there's so many beauty. Things about the the work that's being done in 12 step and AA and the different recovery models. But the thing that is not, you know that great is like, is the shame, is the rigid rules, is the judgment, is the like, you have to do it this way, or you're not a part of this. And so we figured nothing or nothing and and we were like, what we need a remedy for that. We need a remedy for that. So could this be another way of doing it? You know? And I think for us, you know, when you look at the this different stages of change, right? There's like pre contemplation and contemplation, and like actual action and maintenance. There's all these different stages of change, and with the recoveries remedy, we allow anyone to come, no matter what phase they're in. So sometimes people will come and say, you know, I know I want to quit smoking weed, but I'm not. I haven't done that yet, and I'm going to just show up every time I meet and talk about like, you know, more of a harm reduction approach, of like, I did it a little less this week. You know, if you know, what we do ask people is like, if you have a really strong addiction to something like, I can say, for me, I'm a very, very sensitive person, and alcohol would it just completely like, takes me, it hijacks me so I can't drink. There's other substances in my life that I can interact with that I could come to the meeting and be like, Hey, maybe I drink too much coffee this week. Or, Hey, maybe I interacted with a person in this way, and I got really high off of them. And now I'm like, trying to figure out how to bring myself back down. So So the rule is, instead of it being so sobriety, it's more of okay. So if you have something in particular in your life that's really causing your addictive behavior to be out of your own, make you out of your relationship with yourself, then we're asking you to, you know, abstain for that, for the meetings. But if there's other things in your life and you're really working on your relationship to it and to other things, then let's bring that to the meeting. So, so there's a less rigid structure. I love that

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  26:55  
because, and that was actually leading me to part of I was going to do a follow up question, and maybe, you know, in how we can chime in on this too, on you mentioned right relationship, and then you demonstrated, and you're teaching them in terms of, we don't have to call it healthy boundaries, but we could talk about having right relationship with the community, right? And this is, this is what's important for us in relationship, and this is what it means for us to have these relationships with substances and to show up in community, right? That literally demonstrate like, okay, everyone's having some things that they're working through relationship with. We're willing to take you as is, but understand that you need to do none of these particular things during a meeting so that we can actually provide the opportunity to have the right relationship with you and with each other. So I really love that, Julio, do you have any thoughts like, I mean, about what is right relationship to you?

Julio Iniguez  27:54  
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you know, part of how I want to answer that too, is just sharing about like, like, what we offer at recovery remedy. Because I think one of the things that's really important is we talk about our personal experiences in 12 step meetings where, like, for me, it was like not feeling like I had a sense of belonging. And then there's also this sense of like, how sometimes in 12 step meetings, like addictions are siloed based on the substance or the behavior. So it's like, you go to NA, or you go to AA, or you go to Ma, or you go to coda, or right, like they're they're all different. And so part of what we're trying to do at recovery remedy is like, say, from from a place of understanding addiction, from a concept of like, animism, as of like, addiction is this, this frequency. It's this energy. It's this thing that can show up in your life, in a in a multiple different ways, right? It can show up with substances, with behaviors, with food, with money, with sex, right? It can show up all these different ways. And what we want to do is be in relationship with that energy and and understand where it's showing up. Because the thing is, is like, I think as long as we are in a human body, we're going to be in relationship with coping through ways that have a short term benefit but a long term, you know, deficit and so what we're trying to do is also create a space where we don't offer a program like most recovery meetings, whether it was like refuge, Recovery has like the the April path as the program, 12 step meetings have the 12 steps as the recovery program. And like, those are undeniably transformative forms of wisdom and transformative structures that facilitate healing. And like, we have absolutely zero against any of that we're not in competition with that. Most of the people that come to recoveries remedy have benefited greatly from those programs. What isn't available at those programs is, if I'm talking about my addiction, but I'm also bringing in and I'm using the substance, usually, that's not welcome. And so what we want to do is have that be welcome. So part of the reason why we don't offer a program is because those are already out there. What we offer is like shame busting, right? So, so you can really talk about anything like we, like we were gonna go into like, the shadows of ourselves and talk about the things that we don't talk about anywhere else. We're gonna do it in a way where we're honoring like the program is the collective wisdom. So the thing for me about using plant medicines to heal my addiction is that my addiction can also take over my use of plant medicines, and I think that's one of the things that people don't talk in the psychedelic space. Is like, sometimes people behave in these ways and in ways that, like, from someone who's been through addiction, looks kind of addictive, right? But it's like that. It's like one of these, like, unspoken things. And so for me, if I'm thinking about how I'm relating to that in my own head. I don't think I can really trust it because of my history, but when I say it out loud in a group of people where I can track how it's being received, or sometimes it's not even somebody telling me how I'm coming off, when I say it out loud, I hear myself in the ears of the collective and I'm like, Oh my God, I am bullshitting myself right now. This is a terrible idea, right? Like I am not being honest with myself, and so that's what we offer. Is just like a place where through what gets generated, when people come together, when we tap into that collective wisdom, from a place of kindness, curiosity, compassion, the sense of like anything is welcome, the answers sort of reveal themselves. So we don't actually need a program. The program is the experience of being there for that 90 minutes together.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  32:13  
That's so beautiful. I love that, and I love everything from the shame busting concept, but really just giving that radical compassion and acceptance and honesty that's that's needed for the full, full experience. But I also love that you brought up something that I feel like people don't talk about enough in relationship with psychedelics and recovery, that some people seek out psychedelics thinking that it's going to be the end all be all solution for recovery I can personally account for, for people I've been in relationship with, who've you know, who've done, like, for instance, like you'll hear like I did ceremony after ceremony after ceremony after ceremony, sounding almost like an addiction, right? And like I'm still struggling with my alcohol, or it shifted to fentanyl, or it shifted to some other opiate, or, you know, deep into heroin, and then back again, and then they're going back into ceremony again, and they're repeating the cycle, and it's included in their cycle. Do you have anything that could give us some wisdom around that, or some insight around around those people who may be tuning in who may be stuck in that kind of a cycle?

Elizabeth Hoke  33:24  
Yeah, definitely. You know, it makes me think we're talking a lot about right relationship. And, you know, I have to say that right relationship is, it's an indigenous term that we have learned about right and for me, I learned about that from reading Robin wall Kimmer book braiding sweetgrass, she has this really beautiful quote that says, It's not the land which is broken, but our relationship to the land. That's the work of artists, storytellers and parents. We braid sweetgrass to come into right relationship. And I just say that because this idea that you said people are just taking medicine, taking medicine, right? They're like flying down to these countries and they're eating up all the mushrooms, or the or they're drinking the Ayahuasca, and they're not in relationship with like, the impact that they're having on the medicine, or the communities that they're going to to get these ceremonies. Like they're there's, it's just this extractive thing. Like, I need more ceremony. I'm staying in extraction. So even if you're just here growing your own mushrooms, you're in an extractive relationship with the mushrooms. If you're like, why are you not working yet? What are you doing for me? Why isn't this happening fast enough? And so if we get back to that, like, oh, wait, how am I in relationship with this being, right? Those mushrooms are a being. The ayahuasca, all these, all these different medicines, are beings, and if we don't know how to be in relationship with them, then we're not going to be able to actually get that, that that healing that we're looking for, and that healing is like, what are we giving back to in that relationship?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  34:46  
Yeah, Julio, what are your thoughts?

Julio Iniguez  34:49  
I think part of what I'll share there is, like, I know the phenomenon you're talking about, right? And sometimes, like, even firsthand. Right? Where it's like, we can end up in relationship with psychedelics in a way, where we're, like, that sense of the magic bullet, this is going to be the thing, right? And then it doesn't work. And so there's like,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  35:14  
one one time, one journey, one experience, and you'll be cured,

Julio Iniguez  35:19  
actually, how it's portrayed, right? Yeah, it is. I think sometimes that's actually how it's portrayed. And I think that, you know, as to the detriment of people that have issues with with substance abuse, and particularly because, you know, there, there is a culture of, like, consumerism and consuming more. And like, we have to, like, come to terms with that, and also that people find places to go where they can talk about what's happening, which is, like, I'm engaging with the medicine, and I'm still this addiction is still manifesting in this really harmful way, right? Because, like, one of the tools that I use with clients is, it's called the three circles, and it's a way to manage, essentially, what right relationship looks like for that particular person. It's a living document. It's very individualized. It comes from the work of like Patrick Carnes and like sexual addiction, but it's like the type of addictions where abstinence is not the solution, like food. People that have addiction to food, they can't just be abstinent from food. They still have to eat. You need to have right exactly, or with money or with sex, right? There's like these everyday behaviors that can become addictive and create destruction. And so what we need to figure out in terms of what makes a healthy relationship is our boundaries between us and another person, between us and ourselves between us and the behavior between us and a substance. And what's helpful in setting boundaries is being really clear about what the boundary actually is. And so the way that the three circles works is the inner circle is very explicitly and clearly stated the behavior that we don't want to participate anymore. And so for someone who has, like, recovery, meeting background. That's like, if you participate in that behavior, that's what would change your day. That's when you take the newcomers chip, right? And so it could look whatever it can look like, different for everybody. And then the middle circle is all the behaviors that don't change your day. But if you're if you spend enough time there, you'll end up in the other place. So if you're not sleeping enough, if you're not getting good enough sleep, if you're fighting with, like, your partner, if you know, if you're not spending your money correctly, like, there's all these kinds of things that are like high risk, that'll

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  37:53  
put you at risk, yeah, that increase your risk, right, right? And then the best

Julio Iniguez  37:57  
part of it is the outer circle. And so the outer circle are all the things that help you cultivate a recovery lifestyle. So is it meetings? It could be meetings for some people, is it a 12 step? Meeting? Is it a refuge recovery? Meeting, is it a Celebrate Recovery? Meeting, is it going to work out? Is it going out into nature? It's basically where it's the biggest circle, because this is the most expansive one, but this is where you build your recovery lifestyle, what are the things that I need to do and like behaviorally, so that I don't need to go into the inner circle? How do I support myself from staying out of there? And also be really clear about what this is, because what happens is, over time, things change. So it's like, okay, yeah, I know that. You know alcohol, I can never touch again, but I can smoke pot every now and then, right? And so that might be a middle circle or whatever, but then if I start finding that when I smoke pot, it makes me want to drink, I'm like, You know what? I'm actually going to move it from the middle circle to the inner circle. This is actually not working for me. So it's a living document, and it changes as we change, right? So just the same way that healing isn't linear, and healing isn't like a destination at which you arrive, healing is something that we're participating in, like every moment of every day, based on how we're treating ourselves, how we're treating others, having a way to sort of track that, like a document that you can track that can be really helpful.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  39:27  
Yeah, and it's a living relationship, a relationship with yourself, a relationship with everyone around you, and with with us, how here, in this moment, and and with these medicines and these, you know, energies, like, as you say, I love that you you bring up energy in relationship to and the earth that you brought up and breeding sweet grass, I think that's a great resource. We haven't, we haven't fully talked about that, but maybe we should at this point, what, what sort of things would you tell someone who is new? To to like, let's say they've never had any experience with psychedelics. Maybe they have been in recovery and are curious about including that in their path for recovery. What? What? What kind of recommendations would you gift someone

Elizabeth Hoke  40:19  
so one of my favorite books is called good chemistry by Julie Holland, and she talks a lot about that idea of like, being in relationship with your own body chemicals, and then she relates it to these, you know, different chemicals that are psychedelics and MDMA and things like that. So I feel like for people that are just curious to get more information, that's a good starting point, because it really is all about relationship with yourself and and learning what that means. Because for some people, psychedelics isn't, isn't going to be a good thing, you know, like, and I think

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:49  
that's an important thing to mention, like, it's not, it may not be right for

Elizabeth Hoke  40:53  
you. Yeah, it's not right for everyone. It's not right for everyone. And, you know, right for everyone, it's not right for everyone. And Gabor mates, like, realm of the hungry ghost. Is a really good book about addiction. And his new book, myth of normal is amazing, because you know what he talks about is, is trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside you, and how that changes everything you're in relationship with. So if you're really going to think about adding an altered state of consciousness into your recovery program, you have to get right in your relationship with yourself and make sure, like what Julio is talking about. You know, when you're sliding into some risky behavior or sliding into addictive behavior, because it's not just the substance. There's so much that creates that addictive energy that we're talking about, and you have to be able to be in relationship with it and dance with it. And so,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  41:39  
yeah, I actually like thinking of it in terms of an ecosystem, or I've been calling ecosystem relationship approach, right, where you're part of the ecosystem. People,

Julio Iniguez  41:48  
totally, yeah.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  41:51  
But Julie, what are some things that you might might tell someone, and it, again, doesn't have to be a physical book or anything like that, but I love that you brought some books for us. Liz, to look at what is some things you would tell someone, I think,

Julio Iniguez  42:06  
I guess, based on how we work in like, the recovery of remedy space, like I would share like, what's worked for me, because I don't know what's gonna work for somebody else, but understanding me, Understanding my addiction like some of the things that I would share would be to like, I spent six years completely abstinent before exploring Ayahuasca. And I think those six years of complete abstinence were really important for me to get, like, my bearings straight and to understand what it's like to spend an entire cycle around the sun or six without being in an altered state of consciousness. That was actually very helpful for me. The other thing is, when starting to participate with, you know, plant medicines that I'm either, you know, going to a trusted facilitator, or that I'm that I'm doing it in the context of, like, some type of psychedelic assisted therapy, because, again, it's like I don't know that I trust myself to do that by myself. Like I don't want recovery remedy to be a place where people who are not ready to be abstinent go and hang out, because that could happen, right? And the thing is, is like, this is something that is a truth that I have to contend with, you know, for myself, but you know, there is this way that, like when it's happening during ceremony, or, you know, when it's happening during a ketamine assisted therapy session, it's contained there. And so for me, that becomes part of my boundary, that this is when it's okay. But if I'm out at a nightclub and somebody's offering me ketamine, I'm probably going to say no. And again, those are my boundaries. Like, for other people, it might be different, but, like, there is this sense of, like, being really clear about the set and setting, being really clear about, you know, the intention, being really clear about even with the set and setting. Like, what's the outcome? Like? Is this actually moving you closer to what healing looks like for you, or are you chasing healing? Because once you go into that chasing energy, that's very similar to what addiction is, right? And so then there for me, when I found myself in that place of chasing, I know I need to do more integration, and so that means I actually have to slow down and, like, disconnect a little bit from those altered states and from the plants, and connect from just watering my plants, right? And connect with, like, going to the meetings that work for me. So so it's really about, like, yes, you know, plant medicine. And like these altered states are helpful but, but they're not it. It's not, it's not the thing. The thing is how I show up moment to moment, day to day. And that's really like, sort of a compass.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  45:12  
No, I love, I love that you, you shared all of that and and even about like, the the boundary that you set in terms of, like, I need to do it in this set and setting, and outside of that balance is not where it's leading towards my health and recovery, right or healthy lifestyle. And it made me think of and you don't feel like you have to comment on this, but, but Matthew Perry very much in the news and how he was very public about his recovery journey, and wrote a book about it, and ended up dying as a result of ketamine, right? And now we can't really speak to the full details of this case, but I think it points to an example of and it was for home use, right? It wasn't, you know, and, but, and doctors were prescribing it and, and he was given injections at home, right, not in the container he had, in the in a, in a sort of more medical setting. And this isn't about giving any judgment to him or, and I know he did the best that he could right, with the resources available. I always see those sort of things as like our community's failure as a society, right, where we weren't able to show up. But someone who's thinking about public cases about that, someone who's not in a recovery, who looks at cases like, well, ketamine must be dangerous, or any you know, even if they're in recovery, maybe, maybe, maybe the 12 step program is right. What would you say to that?

Julio Iniguez  46:51  
I would say that it is right.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  46:55  
Maybe in that case, it was right,

Julio Iniguez  46:57  
no. And I think, I think for some people, and I know these people, and I love these people, but they live and die by their 12 step recovery lifestyle. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's no judgment against whatever it takes. Is something that you hear across the board at any place that is working towards addiction recovery, your path, whatever it takes to keep you healthy, whatever it takes to keep you alive. You know, part of what we're doing is like, I didn't fit into that, and I also benefited from some of these altered states. Is there risk involved? Absolutely. But I feel like the reward that I've seen versus the risk that I've taken I've gotten good returns in terms of, like, the healing that I've been able to accomplish doing that. So I'm willing to engage that, but I know that that can be amplified when I have spaces to process that with other people, right? So I think, I think it's that thing of, like, I don't know what's gonna work for you. I don't know what's gonna work for somebody else, all I can do is share what works for me. And I think that's another thing that kind of brings up, you know, in terms of, like, what feels important to have in recovery spaces or recovery meetings is like that sense of eldership, like that sense of like somebody who has had experiences, some sense of somebody who has screwed it up, some sense of somebody who can talk about those things in a way that other people can hear and be like, Oh, okay. Like, maybe this is something that could be helpful for me, because that's one of the things that feels a bit edgy about our meeting is that, like, we welcome anybody, and we don't really have a program, right? So if people are really struggling with addiction, part of like, what we've done is just like, have individual conversations with people and be like, Hey, I think like, abstinence could really be helpful for you, right? Like that there is this sense of like, get some sense of grounding first, so that you know how to live life on life's terms to some extent, and stay, you know, functional and have enough well being before we can come in here and continue to expand. Because the thing about the type of healing that happens with psychedelics can be, and often is very destabilizing. And

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  49:27  
I think that's really worth pointing out. You know, I don't think it gets enough emphasis. I'll even, I'll even mention it for people even considering micro dosing, right? Like, if you're, if you're already in a destabilized state, you, I personally would not recommend someone introducing something else that will continue to destabilize you. You should be coming from a grounded state, but, but that makes it kind of complex with addiction, right? If people are are in a destabilized state, and they see like, well, what if this could help me get to that state? Lifestyle, that sort of breakthrough, sort of experience, right? I know, I know that's been coming up for people, but maybe, maybe we should shift to talk about, you know, what has been your experience? I love the edginess, but also the heart of your guys's work and relationship. What has been your experience? How long have you been doing this? At, at in your particular organization or community, I should say. And what have you seen in terms of results in relationship?

Elizabeth Hoke  50:31  
Yeah, I can jump in. So we started, this was it July of 23 July of 2023 in Portland. We started a monthly meeting at the rhizome. That's an educational community here for people that are interested in knowing about psychedelics. And then Portland psychedelic society asked us to also do a group with them. So we had, we have two groups a month. One's at the rhizome on the first Tuesday, and the other one is on the third Friday in Tabor space. So they're both in person, and we're also starting online groups. And so we moved across the country, so we have three, three groups now, and it's been really beautiful, especially watching the group change. You know, sometimes we're talking about our addictive behavior, or sometimes we're talking about our family and why it's making us want to use or making us, you know, feel crazy or, you know, and sometimes we're talking about politics and how that is really causing a lot of hopelessness and despair, and what's the point of working so hard in recovery when there's all this hopelessness and despair? And so it gives us a place to come together, you know? And when I think about Matthew Perry, and I think about the fact that it wasn't the ketamine that killed him, right? He was by himself in a hot tub, like there were so many layers of what got him to that place. And it just breaks my heart to think that there are still addicts out there who are really longing for that their connection, right? In a lot of ways, people are needing more relationship with each other, and that that's the remedy, right? It's just getting people to have each other, to call each other, to be like, Hey, I'm in a ton of pain right now, and I want to get in my hot tub and and do some ketamine. Like, can you Is it possible to have, you know, the kind of relationships in your life that you can call and get that same need met? And that's what we're hoping to create is, is that kind of community where we're meeting that need of when you're needing people, you can call and you can contact that group that you're in without shame, and to be like, Hey, I'm

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  52:31  
gonna without shame. And I think that's that's saying something you know, like the fact that there is so much judgment, right, there's already a lot of pain that that brings one into relationship with addiction, with that energy, that that experience for healing, right for transformation, and then to be in that experience of knowing you need to work on it, and then to experience more judgment and more shame, right when you need that compassion the most, you know. And then then you add in something like psychedelics, and like, Okay, you must, you must still be, because there's a lot of taboo around psychedelics. So it's like, okay. It's like, look, this is what, what's working for me. It may not work for you, you know. And, and it makes me want to say, just generally, you know, the recommendation for compassion, connection, listening, being, being a space and still having healthy boundaries, if you can't be that for that person, but someone else you know or connect them. So, so as we start to kind of wrap up, and I know who you may want to chime in on that last question as well. What, what sort of, you know, messages of hope could you give people who are, who are in recovery right now, in the in the community environment that we find ourselves like, if we can't start bridging that, that like, okay, lack of judgment, we want to make you more help, enable you, empower you, as it were, to be more shame free, right in this moment, right now. What can we provide them?

Julio Iniguez  54:18  
Yeah, I think part of the you know, like a lot of psychedelic society, one of their taglines is, find the others. And I think even within this, like sub community, of these two communities that we're talking about, the others are out there. Like when we started offering this meeting, and people would come. They're like, I've been waiting for something like this to open up. Like, there's people that, like, are in the same place that Liz and I were in, where it's just like, this is like, this part of me that I don't get to take anywhere, and part of like. So what happens is, like, we get compartmentalized. It's like, I take my recovery here and I do my psychedelic work here, but like, there isn't a place where, like, I can just be my full self. And I don't know, I wish nothing on anybody other than to have the experience of having their full self be welcome anywhere. And I think that's, that's part of, like the invitation and like the offering. It's like, let's, let's do this together, and that, you know, it's possible, you know, that the others are out there, that it's just, you know, a little bit of searching there. I mean, there's psychedelics and recovery. We're not the only ones that are doing this, right? So it's like, the more the merrier. Hopefully everybody finds the flavor that really works for them and also to like, inspire people that like. If everything that's out there doesn't work for you, start your own, people will find you, and you will find others you know, like, there's a ton of people out there.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  55:57  
Yes, there are others out there. You're not alone, you're not alone, you're not alone, you're not alone, you're not alone. It feels alone that you're not alone, you're not alone, you're not alone. What about you? Liz, some, some final thoughts.

Elizabeth Hoke  56:10  
Yeah, I, you know, my favorite TED talk is by Johan Hari because he says, you know, the opposite of addiction is an abstinence. It's connection. And yeah, how do we get more in connection with each other. How do we get more? You know, like Julio was saying, find your find find your tribe, find your people. And if it's not there, then create it, and they'll find you. And that's just what we're needing now more than ever, that's

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  56:33  
that's beautiful. I think that's a beautiful note to end on. That that and I'm grateful to be connected to each of you. I'm very grateful, very blessed, to be able to have this connection and relationship and to help us reach out in connection to others, to for them to know about your work and your community and you as individuals. So thank you for connecting with me today. Yeah,

Elizabeth Hoke  56:58  
thank you for you for having us and thank you for creating mess for our community. It's really important, and you're very important. So thank you for this offer. Thank you.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  57:06  
Thank you for that gift. Yeah, thank you. I have to say that this, this episode, means a lot to me. I mean all the episodes mean a lot to me, but as I get more comfortable with sharing some of my own personal stories in relationship to these subjects. I'll least admit to you my audience, that this is this is not, this is not a casual topic for any of us. And you can tell from the stories shared by Julian and Elizabeth that it definitely is personal for them that psychedelics have been a key part of their recovery. It's not for everyone, and to be open to healing and and seeing what is supportive for you and coming into alignment with that for you is is really essential. I I have had friends who have worked through on the recovery and and others who currently are struggling with their recovery. And it's it's not easy for anyone involved, whether you're someone who identifies as as as a family member, a friend, with someone who is struggling with substance dependency, or whether you yourself are struggling with with The dependency. This is a community issue. It's not an issue just for one person. It is not for me, at least in my perspective and in my experience, having experienced time and time again and having lost, you know, close friends and and and family around this that it's it's really essential that we understand that we need to have a compassionate, heart centered approach to these questions, and as we we face the challenges around the opioid, quote unquote crisis, as we recover from the quote unquote War on Drugs, we take an honest look at ourselves and our communities and and how we can create more supportive environments to source each other through all of the journeys that we experience, whether it has to do with substance abuse, dependency, and whether it's It's healing through through a transformative experience in our lives that's very human. So sending you all love, and I hope you found this episode supportive on your journey. Thank you for joining me on psychedelic source. If you found value in today's episode, please subscribe wherever you get your. Podcast and share with others in our community. And if you're a psychedelic practitioner, therapist or coach, looking to identify blind spots in your practice or determine next steps for moving it forward, take the first step by visiting psychedelic Source podcast.com, until next time, remember, start low, go slow and stay connected to your source. You.